What repairs would typically be needed on a 34' Gillig chassis with about 70K miles?

Wille,

Much depends on the how well the chassis was maintained from the begining. I have a 92 Regency with the Gillig Chassis. Since my purchase in July of 2003, I have done no repair work on the chassis. Just prior to buying the coach, the original owner did replace the air purge valve.

When I first bought the coach home I took it to my local diesel repair shop and had it gone over carefully. All checked out well.

Don't get me wrong here, I have spent a good sum on other repairs and routine maintenance.

You are buying quality with the Barth. I believe that the Regency with the Gillig/Cummins/Allison combo to be the best that they ever produced. Others may have differing opinions here, but I am quite happy with the set up I have. However, these higher end components come with generally higher maintenance and repair costs.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill G:
You are buying quality with the Barth. I believe that the Regency with the Gillig/Cummins/Allison combo to be the best that they ever produced.

Bill, could you expand on that? What do you like better about the Gillig over the Spartan?

What do you like about the Cummins over the Cat? I notice the Cat went for about 5K more when new.

Did both have Allisons?

Hi bill h,

I am a bit nervous explaining my thinking to you, your experience and knowledge is significant, however; here is my reasoning.

First off, the simple explaination is that the CAT 3208 was the standard engine and the Cummins 6CTA was the upgrade, so it must be better. The company sales literature (received from Lee Merriman) showed that the Cummins was the more expensive option, I don't have access to the info as it it in storage with the Barth right now, but I know the price was higher, just cannot check on how much. Looking at it more deeply, the CAT is not a sleeved engine, where the Cummins is. This would prevent the effective rebuilding of the CAT. With the Cummins sleeve, you get better wear and therefore longer life.

Having purchased a used coach, I knew that I would want an engine with a reasonable expectation of longevity, hence, I preferred to have a Cummins.

In a less impirical way of thinking, many of the disel mechanics I have spoken to seem to like both CAT and Cummins, but when pressed to choose generally went for the Cummins.

The Allison seems to be the only transmission that Barth used in their diesel pushers. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I have never heard of one. I was a bit dissapointed to find that the original owner of my Barth chose the Allison 647 (4 speed) tranny over the Allison six speed. He told me that he did this because he didn't want to use a Pac brake and that the 647 was good at holding back when downshifted. I could never really prove or disprove this, however; the transmission works fine. I think the 6 speed would have given me better fuel economy. Perhaps some out there can elaborate on the differences (other than number of shifts avaialble) between the 4 and 6 speed tranny's.

Regarding the Gillig, it is a full air suspension chassis and was and is used regularly for commercial busses. The frame rails are the beefiest of any frame that Barth built their coaches on. The frame rails are 10 inches tall and formed of 3/8" steel plate. The New-Way rear suspension has two massive curved box frames supporting the rear axel using two air bags and Bilstein shocks for support and dampening. There are two more airbags up front. The steering components are equally heavy duty. I had a front passenger side tire explode at 65 MPH two years ago, the Barth shuddered , the fornt right side dropped to the wheel, but the coach never waivered. I had one hand on the wheel and initially didn't realize what had happened as the trauma was not transmitted to the steering wheel in any significant way. The coach remained headed straight down the road. I slowed down and carefully steered off to the shoulder. I was also pulling my Honda Accord. When it was over and we were stopped, I noted to my wife that this was why I bought a Barth - vehicle first, house second. I never felt like we out of control or in danger.

I look forward to greater elaboration by the more experienced members on this site, including you.

Bill G

quote:

Originally posted by Bill G:
Hi bill h,

I am a bit nervous explaining my thinking to you, your experience and knowledge is significant, however; here is my reasoning.

Nah, I don't know much about diesels. Trying to learn, though, as I could buy one in the future, S&P willing.

quote:

First off, the simple explaination is that the CAT 3208 was the standard engine and the Cummins 6CTA was the upgrade, so it must be better. The company sales literature (received from Lee Merriman) showed that the Cummins was the more expensive option,

Barths can be so confusing. Here is a link to an ad from Texas Coach with the Cat being $5000 higher. Looking at a NADA book, I find Regency pricing on later models by hp, with no motor manufacturer listed. For 90, it is confusing. I have noticed a lot of inconsistencies in NADA for Barths.

quote:

Regarding the Gillig, it is a full air suspension chassis and was and is used regularly for commercial busses. The frame rails are the beefiest of any frame that Barth built their coaches on. The frame rails are 10 inches tall and formed of 3/8" steel plate. The New-Way rear suspension has two massive curved box frames supporting the rear axel using two air bags and Bilstein shocks for support and dampening. There are two more airbags up front. The steering components are equally heavy duty. I had a front passenger side tire explode at 65 MPH two years ago, the Barth shuddered , the fornt right side dropped to the wheel, but the coach never waivered. I had one hand on the wheel and initially didn't realize what had happened as the trauma was not transmitted to the steering wheel in any significant way. The coach remained headed straight down the road. I slowed down and carefully steered off to the shoulder. I was also pulling my Honda Accord. When it was over and we were stopped, I noted to my wife that this was why I bought a Barth - vehicle first, house second. I never felt like we out of control or in danger.

Sounds like a good reccy. Is the Gillig chassis heavier than a Spartan? Was there a price difference? Does one have heavier brakes? GVW? Parts availability?

On Allisons, is there a listing anywhere that tells what number tranny is what? And what model has what features?

Gentlemen, my coach is a 1990 Regency, gillig chassis, allison 4 speed, and cat 3208T engine.
When I picked the coach up in Alberqurqie NM, I stopped for fuel and had it weighed. Wtih full fuel, full propane, me at 250 lbs. and suite case, I weighed in at 26,140 lbs. I had no water or sewage aboard. The coach grosses out at 29,640 accoding to plates. So I have 3,500 lbs of CC. Happy motoring. Sky

bill h

From looking at the Texas coach price sheet, I would suggest that the cost difference was not a reflection of the engine difference, but rather the Gillig chassis over the Spartan. I believe the Gillig to be a heavier duty and more complex chassis than the Spartan.

I have looked in various places including the Allison site for this kind of info without much success. Maybe BILL NY can help us here.

I hope someone with more real experience weighs in on this.

Bill G

quote:

Originally posted by Bill G:
bill h

From looking at the Texas coach price sheet, I would suggest that the cost difference was not a reflection of the engine difference, but rather the Gillig chassis over the Spartan. I believe the Gillig to be a heavier duty and more complex chassis than the Spartan.

I have looked in various places including the Allison site for this kind of info without much success. Maybe BILL NY can help us here.

I hope someone with more real experience weighs in on this.

Bill G

Yeah, I think you're right on that. I wonder why would they put the Cummins on the Spartan chassis and the Cat on a Gillig chassis? Was this a choice made by the factory or Texas RV?

I would really be interested in learning more about the differences in chassis. What kind of brakes does your Gillig have?

"...why...Cummins on the Spartan chassis and the Cat on a Gillig chassis?"
I bought my '86 Regal (GM) from Texas Coach, one of Barth's primary -successful- dealers. The price differential perhaps was due to Spartan already in stock or other factors not related to actual cost. Spartan apparently had a "deal" with Cummins in '96: at that time we were told we could have any engine/transmission combo we wanted but Cummins/Allison was "standard" and others would cost more. We'll never know, but I discount the $s as a factor of quality.

bill h

Since I don't have my Barth at home right now and cannot get at my files, I am going to rely on my memory regarding the brake data (for me, memory is always in question). We are talking about a 92 Barth with a delivery date of December 1991. So this is a 1991 chassis. It is full air, that is air brakes, air shifting and air suspension.

Once I had an air line blow out and I lost so much pressure so quickly that by the time I got off the road and stopped, the engine would not shut down. I had to shut down using the rear engine panel shut-off switch. More on that some other time.

I think the the total brake pad surface area (front + rear) is 1075 square inches. The brakes are both drum with the front shoes at 7 1/2 inches wide and the rear shoes at 10 3/4 inches wide. I do not know the diameter of the drums, but both drums are substantial.

I have had to do a hard stop twice and both times the Barth stopped quickley with a studder (bounce skid) on the rear wheels.

Bill G

quote:

Originally posted by Bill G:

The Allison seems to be the only transmission that Barth used in their diesel pushers. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I have never heard of one. I was a bit dissapointed to find that the original owner of my Barth chose the Allison 647 (4 speed) tranny over the Allison six speed. He told me that he did this because he didn't want to use a Pac brake and that the 647 was good at holding back when downshifted. I could never really prove or disprove this, however; the transmission works fine. I think the 6 speed would have given me better fuel economy. Perhaps some out there can elaborate on the differences (other than number of shifts avaialble) between the 4 and 6 speed tranny's.

Bill G

If you have the specs for your Allison 647, the spec for the 6-speed MD3060 of about the same vintage is available here for your comparison:

http://users.sisna.com/cebula/MD3060Specs.pdf
Also have MD3060Specs2.pdf available at same site.

Mike

MECHANICAL RATIOS (RANGE)*

MD 3060
First 3.49:1
Second 1.86:1
Third 1.41:1
Fourth- 1.00:1
Fifth - 0.75:1
Sixth - 0.65:1
Reverse - -5.03:1


The Allison MT Series four speed are:
1st - 3.58:1
2nd - 2.09:1
3rd - 1.39:1
4th - 1.0:1

So you get two overdrives! Depending on the load transmitted to the transmission you should experience improved mileage with the six speed, however if you travel in hilly terrain, load the vehicle heavily or tow, you might see an increased number of shifts as the transmission senses high torque resistance leading to a shorter life between rebuilds. This is also a problem that you can see in your transmission temp gauge - higher temeratures while the transmission is under load and shifting. For each ten degrees above 230 deg the time between fluid changes drops by 10,000 miles as the fluid breaks down. You could use Amsoil Transmission fluid to overcome this but at a higher cost of fluid. If you have a six speed it is best to drive according to the transmission temp gauge - manually shifting into lower gears to hold temps below 200 degrees.

I do not have any info on the 647 tranny and could find no info. Hawk-57, thanks for the comparison on the ratio differences between the four and six speed Allisons.

If anyone out there has a spec sheet or manual on the 647 four speed, I would like to get a copy.

My tranny generally runs fairly cool (190 - 200 degrees), but sometimes in summer, in traffic it pushes over 200 degrees. I don't think it ever reached 230 degrees.

Bill G

Bill G. - I have the Allison Service Manual for the MT, MTB644,647, and 654CR series. They are all in the one Service Manual. The Allison number of the book is SA1546G. This manual is about 250 pages long, double sided with foldout diagrams etc. To copy this would be expensive. Maybe Allison has this as there are lots of these around and service people always need them. Perhaps, like most service manuals, it is avialable on dvd or cd. You might call or if you strike out let me know what sections you need and I'll see what it will cost to copy.
Tom

Hawk-57

Thanks for the info, I agree that copying the manual would not be practical. With the service manual number you provided, I'll probably be able to get one from Allison.

Thanks a lot, Bill G