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Oil additives
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Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 6/12
Formally known as "Humbojb"
Picture of Jim and Tere
posted
Hey Rusty, I recently read that all the oil companies are leaving out the wear preventatives in their motor oil in order to meet federal regulations of some sort. Supposedly, Shell Rotella is not. I'm using Mobil 1 in my vehicles. Should I switch to Rotella? I didn't think it was a synthetic. Thanks
Jim


Jim and TereJim and Tere

1985 Regal
29' Chevy 454 P32
8411 3172 29FP3B
Gear Vendor 6 Speed Tranny
 
Posts: 3696 | Location: madisonville tn usa | Member Since: 02-19-2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 2/16
Captain Doom
Picture of Rusty
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I suspect the rumor is based on the fact that contemporary motor oils have virtually all ashless (liquid) detergent-dispersants. For years they had a blend of ash-type (calcium and barium ashes), made of finely ground powders of those ashes.

The ash-type detergents were especially effective in neutralizing sulfuric acid. However, neither was anti-wear; zinc diorgano-dithyophosphate is. I don't know that zinc compounds are out.

Ashless detergents coat contaminate particles while ash-type chemically neutralize them.

With the universal spread of ULSD, sulfuric acid contamination will be nearly eliminated.

Anyway, gaso engines generally operate in a far less stressful environment, and the demands are different. I use Mobil 1 in my car, Rotella T in the truck and RV. I wouldn't recommend switching; there's no reason to


Rusty


MilSpec AMG 6.5L TD 230HP; built-to-order by Peninsular Engines:  Hi-pop injectors, gear-driven camshaft, non-waste-gated, high-output turbo, 18:1 pistons.  Fuel economy increased by 15-20%, power, WOW!"StaRV II"

'94 28' Breakaway: MilSpec AMG 6.5L TD 230HP

Nelson and Chester, not-spoiled Golden Retrievers

Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not.
In either case the idea is quite staggering.
- Arthur C. Clarke

It was a woman who drove me to drink, and I've been searching thirty years to find her and thank her - W. C. Fields
 
Posts: 7734 | Location: Brooker, FL, USA | Member Since: 09-08-2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 6/12
Formally known as "Humbojb"
Picture of Jim and Tere
posted Hide Post
You think it's OK to stick with Mobil 1 in the Barth 454?


Jim and TereJim and Tere

1985 Regal
29' Chevy 454 P32
8411 3172 29FP3B
Gear Vendor 6 Speed Tranny
 
Posts: 3696 | Location: madisonville tn usa | Member Since: 02-19-2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
First Month Member
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 11/13
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The issue out there is the reduction of ZDDP in oils. With roller lifters, everyone agrees things are OK. With flat lifters, there is a diversity of opinion and reported experience.


.

84 30T PeeThirty-Something, 502 powered
 
Posts: 6169 | Location: AZ Central Highlands | Member Since: 01-09-2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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How long can you go between oil changes with Mobil-1 in a gas engine that's in a car that's driven under average conditions? Anyone tried synthetic Penzoil?
 
Posts: 136 | Location: IL | Member Since: 08-25-2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 8/09
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I've used a variety of synthetics in vehicles I've owned, including the RV. In the RV I change the oil once a year regardless of mileage (which is usually between 500-1000 miles). My daily driver is a '99 Olds Aurora, and like most GM cars it has an oil life monitor that basically tells you when to change the oil based on engine use, heat over time, speeds traveled, etc. It's a very smart system and usually doesn't direct me to change oil until sometime between 6000-7000 miles. The kicker is, that's the car's recommendation based on conventional (dino) oil and not synthetic.

So, usually using Mobil 1 (but sometimes Penzoil Platinum or generic synthetic), I worked my way up to 10,000 mile oil changed. Now I've switched to Mobil 1 Extended Protection, which is rated for 1 year / 15,000 miles, whichever comes first. I still change the oil filter once or twice during that interval. Get the stuff on sale and you can save some serious money over the old adage of dealership oil changes every 3,000 miles.

I'm tempted to upgrade again to Amsoil or Royal Purple which are both highly recommended in many oil discussion circles. If you want a real education on all things oil, check out this forum:

www.bobistheoilguy.com
 
Posts: 374 | Location: Illinois | Member Since: 10-09-2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 2/16
Captain Doom
Picture of Rusty
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One can go longer on synthetic than standard oils, because the base stock is homogenous - and being synthesized, contains no contaminants.

The rule-of-thumb is that the oils needs changing when the additive package is depleted. The fewer items to contaminate the oils, the longer it can go.

When I was an oil peddler, local cartage trucks usually changed oil at 8,000 miles. OTR tractors with the same drivetrain (Cummins 250, RoadRanger 11-13 speed) changed at 24-48,000 miles.

Contaminates generally have little or no effect unless there's water present. Idling is bad for any engine, worse so in diesels, because the temperature doesn't get up to spec quickly, and so the moisture from condensate is there longer.

This is why I tell folks not to idle any longer than necessary - once the engine's firing on all cylinders, GO!

Pennzoil is owned by Shell, and Shell pioneered synthetics, so I would guess it's a good product. The synthetic base stock is one thing, the additive package is the most important. IMHO, the best diesel motor oils, synthetic or standard, are by Mobil, Shell, and Kendall.

Anyway, with a synthetic in a fuel injected gaso engine, I'd change every 6,000/1 yr, if carbureted, 4,000/6 mo. but the manufacturers' recommendations are the most reliable - they don't come up with those recommendations on a whim. Note that 80% of cars operate under "severe conditions" based on most owner's manuals.

In any event, I heard somewhere Big Grin that "Oil's cheaper than metal!"

My current opinion is that synthetics are wasted in diesels because as noted, depletion of the additive package is the reason to change, and it'll deplete long before the base stock is damged. I say current, because logically the switch to ULSD will minimize the entry of the worst contaminant, sulfur, but I've seen no reports.


Rusty


MilSpec AMG 6.5L TD 230HP; built-to-order by Peninsular Engines:  Hi-pop injectors, gear-driven camshaft, non-waste-gated, high-output turbo, 18:1 pistons.  Fuel economy increased by 15-20%, power, WOW!"StaRV II"

'94 28' Breakaway: MilSpec AMG 6.5L TD 230HP

Nelson and Chester, not-spoiled Golden Retrievers

Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not.
In either case the idea is quite staggering.
- Arthur C. Clarke

It was a woman who drove me to drink, and I've been searching thirty years to find her and thank her - W. C. Fields
 
Posts: 7734 | Location: Brooker, FL, USA | Member Since: 09-08-2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
First Month Member
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 11/13
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Most of my car and boat engines have roller tappets, but my every day motorcycle has DOHC bucket lifters.

I have been using a little ZDDP to protect what are essentially flat tappets and all is well. this is probably overkill, as a DOHC bucket engine is not as vulnerable as a flat tappet pushrod engine. On a recent oil change I threw in an antimony additive instead. Oil temps went down. No controlled experiment, since temps vary, but every time I checked, oil was cooler.

Of course, antimony has been used in bearings since forever. My grandfather kept big crystalline chunks of it around for both bullet casting and bearing pouring. I still have some of it. I wonder where he got so much.

Anyway, since this is essentially adding bearing metal to the oil, it seems fairly innocuous.

Our plant maint guys at work put a little in each 90 degree gearbox for all the baggage conveyor belt systems. There are hundreds. This was before temp guns, but they did one of a pair (each driven by the same motor and moving the same belt) and left the other one alone. The temp difference was obvious by touching.


.

84 30T PeeThirty-Something, 502 powered
 
Posts: 6169 | Location: AZ Central Highlands | Member Since: 01-09-2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
FKA: noble97monarch
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 3/12
Picture of Moonbeam-Express
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This sounds informative, but I can't vouch for it's absolute truth. I'm sure Rusty will edit if debunked.
quote:
Over the years there has been an overabundance of engine oil myths. Here are some facts you may want to pass along to customers to help debunk the fiction behind these myths.

The Pennsylvania Crude Myth -- This myth is based on a misapplication of truth. In 1859, the first commercially successful oil well was drilled in Titusville, Pennsylvania.
A myth got started before World War II claiming that the only good oils were those made from pure Pennsylvania crude oil. At the time, only minimal refining was used to make engine oil from crude oil. Under these refining conditions, Pennsylvania crude oil made better engine oil than Texas crude or California crude. Today, with modern refining methods, almost any crude can be made into good engine oil.

Other engine oil myths are based on the notion that the new and the unfamiliar are somehow "bad."

The Detergent Oil Myth -- The next myth to appear is that modern detergent engine oils are bad for older engines. This one got started after World War II, when the government no longer needed all of the available detergent oil for the war effort, and detergent oil hit the market as “heavy-duty” oil.

Many pre-war cars had been driven way past their normal life, their engines were full of sludge and deposits, and the piston rings were completely worn out. Massive piston deposits were the only thing standing between merely high oil consumption and horrendous oil consumption. After a thorough purge by the new detergent oil, increased oil consumption was a possible consequence.
If detergent oils had been available to the public during the war, preventing the massive deposit buildup from occurring in the first place, this myth never would have started. Amazingly, there are still a few people today, 60 years later, who believe that they need to use non-detergent oil in their older cars. Apparently, it takes many years for an oil myth to die.

The Synthetic Oil Myth -- Then there is the myth that new engine break-in will not occur with synthetic oils. This one was apparently started by an aircraft engine manufacturer who put out a bulletin that said so. The fact is that Mobil 1 synthetic oil has been the factory-fill for many thousands of engines. Clearly, they have broken in quite well, and that should put this one to rest.

The Starburst Oil Myth -- The latest myth promoted by the antique and collector car press says that new Starburst/ API SM engine oils (called Starburst for the shape of the symbol on the container) are bad for older engines because the amount of anti-wear additive in them has been reduced. The anti-wear additive being discussed is zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP).

Before debunking this myth, we need to look at the history of ZDP usage. For over 60 years, ZDP has been used as an additive in engine oils to provide wear protection and oxidation stability.

ZDP was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Oils with a phosphorus level in the 0.03% range passed a corrosion test introduced in 1942.

In the mid-1950s, when the use of high-lift camshafts increased the potential for scuffing and wear, the phosphorus level contributed by ZDP was increased to the 0.08% range.

In addition, the industry developed a battery of oil tests (called sequences), two of which were valve-train scuffing and wear tests.

A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.

By the 1970s, increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in high-load engines, which otherwise could thicken to a point where the engine could no longer pump it. Because ZDP was an inexpensive and effective antioxidant, it was used to place the phosphorus level in the 0.10% range.

However, phosphorus is a poison for exhaust catalysts. So, ZDP levels have been reduced over the last 10-15 years. It's now down to a maximum of 0.08% for Starburst oils. This was supported by the introduction of modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus.

Enough history. Let's get back to the myth that Starburst oils are no good for older engines. The argument put forth is that while these oils work perfectly well in modern, gasoline engines equipped with roller camshafts, they will cause catastrophic wear in older engines equipped with flat-tappet camshafts.

The facts say otherwise.

Backward compatability was of great importance when the Starburst oil standards were developed by a group of experts from the OEMs, oil companies, and oil additive companies. In addition, multiple oil and additive companies ran no-harm tests on older engines with the new oils; and no problems were uncovered.

The new Starburst specification contains two valve-train wear tests. All Starburst oil formulations must pass these two tests.

- Sequence IVA tests for camshaft scuffing and wear using a single overhead camshaft engine with slider finger (not roller) followers.

- Sequence IIIG evaluates cam and lifter wear using a V6 engine with a flat-tappet system, similar to those used in the 1980s.

Those who hold onto the myth are ignoring the fact that the new Starburst oils contain about the same percentage of ZDP as the oils that solved the camshaft scuffing and wear issues back in the 1950s. (True, they do contain less ZDP than the oils that solved the oil thickening issues in the 1960s, but that's because they now contain high levels of ashless antioxidants not commercially available in the 1960s.)
Despite the pains taken in developing special flat-tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat-tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that new oils will wear out older engines.
Like other myths before it, history teaches us that it will probably take 60 or 70 years for this one to die also.

Special thanks to GM's Techlink
- Thanks to Bob Olree – GM Powertrain Fuels and Lubricants Group




Formerly: 1997 Barth Monarch
Now: 2000 BlueBird Wanderlodge 43' LXi Millennium Edition DD Series 60 500HP 3 stage Jake, Overbuilt bike lift with R1200GS BMW, followed by 2011 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited,
“I haven’t been everywhere, but it’s on my list.”
 
Posts: 2228 | Location: Laurel Park, NC | Member Since: 03-16-2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Old Man and No Barth
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Way back in the late '30 or early '40s, Standard Oil of California, which morphed into Chevron, which morphed into Chevron/Texaco, came out with a new motor oil branded "RPM." The brand exists today, much modified, I'm sure, from the original formulation, but when it came out, it was said the letters "RPM" stood for "Ruins Perfect Motors."

People have always resisted change. Motor heads are no different, & we are reluctant to substitute the new and untried, for that which has been proven. It's a sub-set of the, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," rule.
 
Posts: 1421 | Location: Upper Left Corner | Member Since: 10-28-2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 11/13
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quote:
Originally posted by olroy:
Way back in the late '30 or early '40s, Standard Oil of California, which morphed into Chevron, which morphed into Chevron/Texaco, came out with a new motor oil branded "RPM." The brand exists today, much modified, I'm sure, from the original formulation, but when it came out, it was said the letters "RPM" stood for "Ruins Perfect Motors."



As a kid, I heard mechanics and hot rodders talk about detergent oil loosening up so much sludge that the engine failed. Perhaps that RPM oil was an early detergent oil.

By pass filters were the norm then, and you had to scoop sludge out of the filter canister when replacing the element, and I got to see first hand the amount of sludge the detergent oils loosened up when first used. Many folks resisted detergent oils, but hydraulic lifters ran quieter with cleaner oil.

It used to be standard to introduce detergent oil into an engine gradually. One quart each oil change until, at the fourth or fifth oil change, you were running full detergent oil.

This, of course, was back when Kendall's logo was a hand holding up two fingers, indicating that it was the Two Thousand Mile Oil.



.

84 30T PeeThirty-Something, 502 powered
 
Posts: 6169 | Location: AZ Central Highlands | Member Since: 01-09-2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My Studebaker has a flat head 6 with solid lifters so I am doubly screwed. I really baby it and put in a bottle of STP with every oil change. There is a product (oil additive) that you can get from the auto parts store for newly rebuilt engines that has zinc in it. Many of my friends with oler style engines use this to prevent lifter and cam shaft wear.



W4JDZ
 
Posts: 567 | Location: Warrenton, N.C. | Member Since: 03-27-2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 2/16
Captain Doom
Picture of Rusty
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quote:
The Synthetic Oil Myth -- Then there is the myth that new engine break-in will not occur with synthetic oils. This one was apparently started by an aircraft engine manufacturer who put out a bulletin that said so. The fact is that Mobil 1 synthetic oil has been the factory-fill for many thousands of engines. Clearly, they have broken in quite well, and that should put this one to rest.


This was a complete misunderstanding. The actual rule was to run the rebuilt engine on NON-DETERGENT oil, as the detergent-bearing oil, with the antiwear properties, wouldn't allow proper breakin. This was especially critical with chromed or nitrided cylinders.

quote:
My Studebaker has a flat head 6 with solid lifters so I am doubly screwed. I really baby it and put in a bottle of STP with every oil change. There is a product (oil additive) that you can get from the auto parts store for newly rebuilt engines that has zinc in it. Many of my friends with oler style engines use this to prevent lifter and cam shaft wear.


STP is a mixture of bright-stock (napthenic) oil and polyisobutylene, which was one of the first viscosity index improvers. At lower temps, the molecules were coiled up, and acted like small molecules, meaning low viscosity. At higher temps, the molecules uncoiled and became longer, resulting in increased viscosity.

Sadly, these larger molecules were subject to mechanical shearing. The resulting bits tended to manifest themselves as ring belt and valve deposits.

I don't know that STP has been reformulated; if not, IMHO, its only beneficial use is to prelube journal bearings prior to reassembly.

ZDP is beneficial, but probably not necessary.


Rusty


MilSpec AMG 6.5L TD 230HP; built-to-order by Peninsular Engines:  Hi-pop injectors, gear-driven camshaft, non-waste-gated, high-output turbo, 18:1 pistons.  Fuel economy increased by 15-20%, power, WOW!"StaRV II"

'94 28' Breakaway: MilSpec AMG 6.5L TD 230HP

Nelson and Chester, not-spoiled Golden Retrievers

Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not.
In either case the idea is quite staggering.
- Arthur C. Clarke

It was a woman who drove me to drink, and I've been searching thirty years to find her and thank her - W. C. Fields
 
Posts: 7734 | Location: Brooker, FL, USA | Member Since: 09-08-2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
First Month Member
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 11/13
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It is interesting to note that the Installation guide from Chevrolet on my crate 502 motor says:

1. "After installing the engine, ensure the crankcase has been filled with 5W30 motor oil (non-synthetic) to the
recommended oil fill level on the dipstick."

and then:

10. "10. Change the oil and filter. Replace with 5W30 motor oil (non synthetic)"

and, finally:

13. "Do not use synthetic oil for break-in. It would be suitable to use synthetic motor oil after the second recommended oil change and mileage accumulation."

"Do not use synthetic oil for break-in. It would be suitable to use synthetic motor oil after the second recommended oil change and mileage accumulation."

And finally finally:

"Recommended Oil: ......................... 5W30 synthetic motor oil (after break-in)"

Heck, they had me so afraid of synthetic that I looked away when I saw it on the shelf until the engine was broken in. But, I do use it now.

Interestingly enough, there was no mention of being sure to use non-detergent oil for break in. That used to be a common rec.


.

84 30T PeeThirty-Something, 502 powered
 
Posts: 6169 | Location: AZ Central Highlands | Member Since: 01-09-2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 2/16
Captain Doom
Picture of Rusty
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GM/DD engineers (unlike their counterparts at Chrysler, Ford, Cummins, Cat, Perkins, Hercules, Gardner, Lister, MAN, Daimler-Benz, Waukesha, Cooper-Bessemer, [even EMD], Allison, Fairbanks-Morse, GE, etc., etc., etc.), generally were either clueless or too arrogant to get educated on lubricants.

The 502 instructions illuminate and decisively prove that Boeotian ignorance, in that SYNTHETIC OILS ARE EXACTLY THE SAME CHEMICALLY (sans impurities) AS THEIR MINERAL OIL COUNTERPARTS!

I'm surprised the instructions didn't specify using dihydrogen monoxide in the cooling system for breakin before switching over to water...Big Grin

I think I mentioned once before, "WHEREVER did GM find these people?" Methinks folks that failed in the Marketing Department were transferred to engineering.

Apparently a large number of GM engine engineers later specialized in windshield washer design or bolted to Toyota's brake/throttle division.


Rusty


MilSpec AMG 6.5L TD 230HP; built-to-order by Peninsular Engines:  Hi-pop injectors, gear-driven camshaft, non-waste-gated, high-output turbo, 18:1 pistons.  Fuel economy increased by 15-20%, power, WOW!"StaRV II"

'94 28' Breakaway: MilSpec AMG 6.5L TD 230HP

Nelson and Chester, not-spoiled Golden Retrievers

Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not.
In either case the idea is quite staggering.
- Arthur C. Clarke

It was a woman who drove me to drink, and I've been searching thirty years to find her and thank her - W. C. Fields
 
Posts: 7734 | Location: Brooker, FL, USA | Member Since: 09-08-2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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