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I have said it before and I will say it again, THE PROBLEM WITH POSTING IS THAT THE VIEWER, DOES NOT SEE THE SENDERS BODY MOVEMENTS OR HEAR THE TONE OF VOICE, and because of such some can very easy mistake what is being stated. I have read some wild tales regarding the Cat 3208 engine and MOST are in error, but we CAN'T take these things to serious. Dave, like all of us has his oppinion, and he knows it is just that, HIS OPPINION so we should not get so upset. Being in the car related business we see recalls everyday but we live with such and we should give credit to those that admit to a problem. Maybe Dave could have said it with a short statement, IF YOU OWN A MCC YOU SHOULD HAVE A TRAINED PERSON INSPECT THE UNDERWORKINGS CAREFULLY, AND OFTEN. Too, provide the MCC owners with a list of other owners so that they can share information and experiences. Maybe Les could post his feelings on the subject on this site, and thus clear the air so to speak. I for one have sure said some things in my posts that were misundersood and Bill. H did insert a smile face that should have told us readers that he was having some fun. I have found by putting a hehe behind statements that more people understand better. LET'S TRY TO GIVE THE POSTER THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT. I can understand that as a MCC owner one does not like reading such info, but we should not take it as a PERSONAL attact. We that know Dave know he was not doing such to hurt anyones feelings. At the time he felt it was the RIGHT thing to do. There are so many very nice people on the site and we will learn from so many of them in the days to come. Thanks for hearing me out. Dale P.S. note NO hehe here, I am serious.
Well, of course I knew it was a joke, I just didn't think it was a laughing matter, that's all. And I don't take the "MCC bashing" personally... I'm not selling mine anytime soon... but I just wish the discussions were more objective, all around. Mike Foster, (Mike, I'm only guessing this by your posts, please correct me if I'm wrong) myself, and I suspect a few other MCC owners have really had enough of the uninformed bashing. ENOUGH ALREADY!!!
|"First Year of Inception" Membership Club|
This is a 100% non-commercial website. No one pays a dime for anything they get here. Therefore the only value of this website is measured by the extent that it serves the new and existing Barth owner.
There have been 100's of pages written about the white knuckled experience driving a P-30 with out about a grand of suspension add-ons.
There has been very candid discussions about Barth's crappy paint jobs and the struggling with a 1990 Breakaway with a 190 hp diesel and pulling a car up a hill.
The chassis problems with the MCC is no opinion, it is fact. That doesn't mean you shouldn't love this coach. I do, I love the floor plan, I love the low, wide center of gravity and it was, along with the Regal the first of the new design which became the "Barth Look" until the day they closed. In fact, every one who opens this website first see a 1985 35ft MCC coach.
I recall reading an Airstream forum and listening to older trailer owners complaining that the plastic used in the bathroom fixtures crumbles in you hands after 30 years. You want to hear owners talk candidly about their coach problems find a 1990-something Pace Arrow owner and read about slide outs coming out going around a corner. Or water pouring in around the windshields or even worse the windshield just falling out. Or the cabinets and TV's falling off the walls.
This is not MCC bashing, it is candid discourse about a Barth coach. I am sorry about the fact that Les Hoagland is such a good salesman that most people paid way too much for these MCC coaches. Even the 1982 article on the introduction of this couch kind of questions how they could put $150K worth of stuff in this coach. And, I should say that Jim Black is equally talented when he sells a 30 year old FMC for up to $75K.
I have yet to find a single qualified and knowledgeable Barth advocate who is not candid about the original short comings of this chassis.
I do not get involved in idiotic bashing. Anyone who knows me, knows that I research things to death.
I have talked with Les Hoagland not once but many times about the shortcomings of this chassis. Yes he thinks that he has come up with a solution and that's great. But his parts are not DOT certified. Now, I am not saying that you shouldn't buy his parts and then cruise down the highway at 70 MPH. But you should definitely be aware of that.
I have talked with Jack Knott the former VP of sales for Barth. He enlightened me about the desire for Barth to have a very high end coach and they rushed things to production.
I have talked with Bill Barth who worked in the Barth factory for 20 years.
I have talked with Dan Robinson, formerly of Rovan the primary Barth repair guy. He's the guy who has the bumpers for sale. He as well as Bill Barth, and Les told the story of the axle failing on the first one. And, they told me the story separately without prompting.
I have talked with Lee Merriman several times, Lee is a long time Barth owner and the Pres. of the Barth Rangers.
When I make a statement about how I like the original paint scheme on a Barth that's opinion. When I say that if you buy an MCC that the chassis is probably to light for the coach, that's not opinion...that's fact.
That doesn't especially mean you shouldn't buy the coach. A brand new Gulfstream Sun Cruiser has NCC (net carrying capacity) of around 200 lbs. That means that if I sit in the sucker it is overweight.
Every person who considers buying an MCC chassis on this site should know that there is a chance that in the future there may not be spare parts. If this site can't offer that kind of info to the readers, we have not business even being here.
[This message has been edited by davebowers (edited October 07, 2004).]
OPINION per WEBSTER'S NEW WORLD DICTIONARY. 1. A belief not based on absolute certainty or positive knowledge but on what seems true, valid, or probable to one's own mind; what one thinks; judgment. 2. An evaluation, impression, or estimation of the quality or worth of a person or thing. 3. The formal judgment of an expert on a matter in which advice is sought. I would bet there are MCC's that have not experienced the problem discussed, so one can't say with CERTAINTY they will. I too would bet there are those that in their OPINION feel there is not a problem. Sounds like there is a problem, but Dave' OPINION is not the only one on the block. OPINION IS NOT A DIRTY WORD. In my OPINION Dave's a caring nice guy. Sounds as though he feels opinion doesn't fit, but I feel it does. I respect Dave's opinion. I did not say Dave was wrong, or that he had not done his homework. It also is not a BLACK and WHITE matter, so there are opinions and these posts are showing such. This is MY opinion.
|"First Year of Inception" Membership Club|
I thank Dave for the service he does.
If you bought a barth with the standard mcc chassis how much would it cost to retrofit the coach with Les Hoagland's "heavy duty" parts?
I found a copy of one of Les Hoaglands Motor Coach News Letters that he mails to customers. It has the cost of up-grades for both suspension and brake modifications in it. Give me a number to fax it to or you can call them at 800-786-1536 and get on his mailing list.
I am Leslie Hoagland, MOTOR COACH RESTORATION at Lincoln,Illinois: and I would like to clear up the misconceptions that I have noted on this forum.
The MCC Coach was primarily built for the 1981,1982, and 1983 model years BUT there is a least one 1985 Model. The MCC coach was a fiberglass coach and 45 were built. The MCC that went to the FMCA Denver Rally had the front steel wheel break and fell off in a turn or so I have been told by several who were in attendance at that Rally.
When MCC Corp. went bankrupt the Regency Corp. was formed and built the last seven MCC
Regency built 92 additional chassis from the time of the original 38 MCC Coaches - this fact comes from MCCmemos gotten when M.C.R. bought the MCC/Regeny brake and suspension tooling.
Our Steering and Suspesion modification for the FMC, MCC, and Regency chassis coaches is not about heavy duty. It is about replacing aged parts and new additions for ride and
The MCC and Regency chassis were built for GVW at 20,000# but modified front spring and wheels when they found coaches weighed
22,000# or more.(Road Ready)
Our Steering and Suspension Modification is more about setup for when these coaches are setup properly they RIDE AND DRIVE LIKE A LUXURY SEDAN - WHICH IS NOT BRAG but fact.
Prices that we get for a FMC, MCC, or Regency Coaches may be to much for someone's budget - BUT the fact remains that the price is driven by the amount of Parts and Labor that are required for the project.
In conclusion, I repeat that the parts are not made to be more HEAVY DUTY but there has been upgrade for quality considering that 24 and 32 years have passed since original manufacture.
HAPPY TRAILS - LESLIE 800.786.1536
|"First Year of Inception" Membership Club|
I am so pleased that Les dropped by to leave us a message on MCC chassis. We don't get enough of those who have long term Barth expertise like Les. The following is a copy of an email I sent to him and I am sure it reflects all of our feelings.
I want to thank you so much for honoring us with your post on Barthmobile.com. It is rare that we get someone with your expertise to actually come on and let us know what the real "skinny" is. Please do not be a stranger, you are not only more than welcome but we all strongly encourage you to visit us frequently.
And, of course, our thoughts and prayers are with you for your continued good health.
God Bless and Pleasant Journeys,
[This message has been edited by davebowers (edited October 27, 2004).]
With time to reread the MCC/regency discussion, I find the following comments.
Thanks to Dave for the courteous note.
REGARDING, Deb and Ed's failure - actually it was not the ball joints as they were reused for I made a point that I would replace them as a precaution - but to no avail. This type of failure is generally wheel bearings that have not been repacked at proper interval. We have found at M.C.R. that at one year interval there is moisture contamination.
We have also found that the upper suspension arm shaft has been broked by being pulled too far down by a stiffened front spring But that has happened only on two occasions.
Brake systems on any coach would benefit by flushing with alcohol and filling system with DOT 5 silicone brake fluid which does not have affinty for moisture. Therefore, brake system will wear out - NOT RUST OUT or fail due to boil off.
The MCC/Regency coaches were made in the model years 1981-1987. Fiberglass MCC in the years 1981-1983, Regency Chassis 1983-1987. There were 45 MCC coaches, 52 Barth w/Regency chassis,30 Country Coach w/Regency chassis, and 3 additional coaches on the MCC/Regency chassis.
The FMC coaches G.V.W started at 4,500# front and 10,000# rear and finished at 5,400# front and 10,500# rear.
The MCC/Regency Coaches actually weigh in Road-Ready at 8,000# front and 15,000# rear in most instances.
The FMC Coaches with Diesel Conversion add weight to rear with most diesel engines but actually lighten front. When M.C.R. sets up steering and suspension on FMC - gas/diesel, MCC, or Regency coaches these setups differ according to the individual coaches due to weight distribution and total weight.
MCC actually changed the Front Spring,Upper Suspension Arms, Trailing Arms, and Torsion Bars to increase suspension capacity from the FMC motor home chassis.
The 1,052 FMC Coaches were built between November 1972 and February 1976 for the model years 1973,1974,1975, and 1976. Of the 1,052 FMC Coaches 135 of them were Buses either Transit or Shuttle.
Mike Umbaugh who I believe owned Barth Corp in total, actually setup Regency Products after MCC Corp. went bankrupt. That is why the aluminum Barth coaches account for the most of any manufacturer.
Safety of the MCC/Regency Coaches with 150,000 or more miles has not been an issue when maintenance was completed on a REGULAR PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE BASIS. Therefore, I believe the Fiberglass MCC Motor Coaches have been given a bad rap.
Did the MCC have fit and finish problems? - YES. Could the brakes or suspension have been heavier? - YES.
The only work BARTH did on the fiberglass MCC was interior build. These MCC Coaches were built in California and finished in Indiana. The Regency Chassis was built in California and shipped to wherever the Coaches were built.
I trust this will help to clarify the history of these chassis which when properly setup can give the owners that FANTASTIC RIDE AND DRIVE.
HAPPY TRAILS - Leslie
We can only hope that Les's 2nd post on our site is only the beginning! We come here to learn, and welcome those who share knowledge so freely.
Dan & Suzy Z
'81 Euro 28
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