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Harmonic Balancer
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Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 03/08
"First Year of Inception" Membership Club
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posted
Hi Gang! I’m just starting dismantling the back end of my Breakaway to replace the Harmonic balancer…(another 1000 feet and it would have been an uncontained explosion); any suggestions on type and price of replacement would be appreciated? Also best place to purchase the part. If any one has any pearls of wisdom before I remove the radiator, evaporator, and assorted extra parts to get to it I’d love to hear from you.
 
Posts: 216 | Location: Kailua Kona, HI & E. Waterboro, ME | Member Since: 06-27-2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Captain Doom
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It sounds like this might interest you.


Rusty


MilSpec AMG 6.5L TD 230HP; built-to-order by Peninsular Engines:  Hi-pop injectors, gear-driven camshaft, non-waste-gated, high-output turbo, 18:1 pistons.  Fuel economy increased by 15-20%, power, WOW!"StaRV II"

'94 28' Breakaway: MilSpec AMG 6.5L TD 230HP

Nelson and Chester, not-spoiled Golden Retrievers

Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not.
In either case the idea is quite staggering.
- Arthur C. Clarke

It was a woman who drove me to drink, and I've been searching thirty years to find her and thank her - W. C. Fields
 
Posts: 7734 | Location: Brooker, FL, USA | Member Since: 09-08-2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Please read this post on Barthmobile.

Because most members just read these post and move on I am going to strongly stress again what I said earlier This Year.
quote:
I would recommend to everyone who has not changed their harmonic balancer to at least have it checked. Because of age, most of you will be changing them out sooner, rather than later. This recommendation is mostly directed towards the Cummins owners, but it couldn't hurt to check if you own something else.
Because of the age of these coaches, and the design of these harmonic balancers, we now have 2 types of people on our forums... Those that have replaced their balancer and those who will soon be replacing them... mechanic

One can be done relatively cheap, the other can be done at the end of a tow truck, damage to the radiator and a ruined vacation... Eeker

Good luck Eric, I'm glad you caught it before "another 1000 feet" Thumbs Up

Again, mostly directed towards the Cummins Diesel Owner... If you own something else, it couldn't hurt to at least have it checked.


˙ʎ˙u ןןıq- „ǝןƃuɐ ʇuǝɹǝɟɟıp ɐ ɯoɹɟ pןɹoʍ ǝɥʇ ʇɐ ʞooן ɐ ƃuıʞɐʇ sı ǝɟıן oʇ ʇǝɹɔǝs ǝɥʇ„

Regis Widebody1990 Barth Regis Widebody
8908 0128 40RDS-C1
L-10 Cummins
Allison MT647 Transmission
Spartan Chassis
Regal Conversion1991 Medical Lab Conversion
9102 3709 33S-12
Ford 460 MPFI
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Oshkosh Chassis



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Posts: 5924 | Location: Newburgh, New York | Member Since: 05-10-2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
FKA: noble97monarch
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 3/12
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Bill,

Is it age, mileage, heat or some unknown combination that kills the HB? My coach is 13 yrs old and has 30K, I wouldn't think it's a candidate yet, but you have me thinking.




Formerly: 1997 Barth Monarch
Now: 2000 BlueBird Wanderlodge 43' LXi Millennium Edition DD Series 60 500HP 3 stage Jake, Overbuilt bike lift with R1200GS BMW, followed by 2011 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited,
“I haven’t been everywhere, but it’s on my list.”
 
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quote:
Originally posted by noble97monarch:
My coach is 13 yrs old and has 30K, I wouldn't think it's a candidate yet, but you have me thinking.
Yes Corey, you might be ok for a few more years. Seeing that your coach is at the tail end of the production run and is newer. But you should have it checked out.
quote:
Originally posted by Medic37:
What are we looking-for *visually* when inspecting the Harmonic Balancer???
Look for excessive wobble, cracking of the rubber between the 2 pieces and look to see if the timing marks are still aligned. If it is of a viscous style, look for leaks.

It is always preferable to purchase a viscous style damper to a rubber one. Most current big diesel engines use a viscous style damper.

If your front main seal is leaking and oil gets in there, it will speed up the deterioration of the rubber between the harmonic balancer.
quote:
"We've talked about the harmonic balancer on a Cummins in the past. It is my firm belief that the lower pulley should be attached to the inside of the harmonic balancer. Instead, on the 8.3L, it is attached to the outside of the balancer. It is more of an issue if the pulley groove is offset from the balancer.

...The harmonic balancer on most RV's do not get used enough to stay balanced. It really has more to do with the age of the rubber and the tensions only being left in one of three spots when the engine is not running."
Some things that will speed this up... Oil leaking onto the balancer, high temperatures, too tight of belt tension and being struck by a foreign object are but a few of these.


˙ʎ˙u ןןıq- „ǝןƃuɐ ʇuǝɹǝɟɟıp ɐ ɯoɹɟ pןɹoʍ ǝɥʇ ʇɐ ʞooן ɐ ƃuıʞɐʇ sı ǝɟıן oʇ ʇǝɹɔǝs ǝɥʇ„

Regis Widebody1990 Barth Regis Widebody
8908 0128 40RDS-C1
L-10 Cummins
Allison MT647 Transmission
Spartan Chassis
Regal Conversion1991 Medical Lab Conversion
9102 3709 33S-12
Ford 460 MPFI
C6 Transmission
Oshkosh Chassis



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Posts: 5924 | Location: Newburgh, New York | Member Since: 05-10-2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I had never heard of a 'harmonic balancer' until one fell off the flywheel of an old Volvo I once had. In fact, maybe they didn't call it a 'harmonic balancer' at all. My really old Volvos didn't have them. What are/were they for? Does a 454 have one?
Like I have always said, 'I'm just a little mechanically challenged'.
Jim


Jim and TereJim and Tere

1985 Regal
29' Chevy 454 P32
8411 3172 29FP3B
Gear Vendor 6 Speed Tranny
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and Tere:
What are/were they for? Does a 454 have one?
Your 454 Chevy does have a Harmonic Balancer. Here is a wiki on the Harmonic Balancer.
quote:
A harmonic balancer (also called crank pulley damper, crankshaft damper, torsional damper, or vibration damper) is a device connected to the crankshaft of an engine to reduce torsional vibration and serves as a pulley for drive belts.

Every time the cylinders fire, torque is imparted to the crankshaft. The crankshaft deflects under this torque, which sets up vibrations when the torque is released. At certain engine speeds the torques imparted by the cylinders are in synch with the vibrations in the crankshaft, which results in a phenomenon called resonance. This resonance causes stress beyond what the crankshaft can withstand, resulting in crankshaft failure.

To prevent this vibration, a harmonic balancer is attached to the front part of the crankshaft. The damper is composed of two elements: a mass and an energy dissipating element. The mass resists the acceleration of the vibration and the energy dissipating (rubber/clutch/fluid) element absorbs the vibrations.

Additionally the energy transferred from the piston to the crankshaft can induce as much as 2 degrees of twist in the crankshaft, which has many follow-on effects on all engine elements that require adequate timing such as valve opening, cam timing, ignition timing etc.

Over time, the energy dissipating (rubber/clutch/fluid) element can deteriorate from age, heat, cold, or exposure to oil or chemicals. Unless rebuilt or replaced, this can cause the crankshaft to develop cracks, resulting in crankshaft failure.

Performance enthusiasts have been known to remove harmonic balancers, usually when the balancer is attached to the crank pulley, deciding that they aren't necessary and their mass reduces the performance of the engine. However, this is unproven and potentially very risky because the danger of damage to the engine from the vibrations the damper is intended to prevent is too high.[citation needed]

Certain cars, however, do not come equipped with an external balancer on the crank pulley, and as such, can have the pulley replaced with a performance oriented product which counter-act these resonance frequencies.


˙ʎ˙u ןןıq- „ǝןƃuɐ ʇuǝɹǝɟɟıp ɐ ɯoɹɟ pןɹoʍ ǝɥʇ ʇɐ ʞooן ɐ ƃuıʞɐʇ sı ǝɟıן oʇ ʇǝɹɔǝs ǝɥʇ„

Regis Widebody1990 Barth Regis Widebody
8908 0128 40RDS-C1
L-10 Cummins
Allison MT647 Transmission
Spartan Chassis
Regal Conversion1991 Medical Lab Conversion
9102 3709 33S-12
Ford 460 MPFI
C6 Transmission
Oshkosh Chassis



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OK, not being quite as lazy as I seem, I did a 'Wiki' on it and understand what it does and what it looks like. Volvo started putting them on their cars in 1985. It was a combination crankshaft pulley/vibration damper. I did a quick search for a P30 454 and they show them there as well. I guess it the same arrangement, ie combination crankshaft pulley/vibration damper?
Jim


Jim and TereJim and Tere

1985 Regal
29' Chevy 454 P32
8411 3172 29FP3B
Gear Vendor 6 Speed Tranny
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and Tere:
OK, not being quite as lazy as I seem, I did a 'Wiki' on it and understand what it does and what it looks like. Volvo started putting them on their cars in 1985. It was a combination crankshaft pulley/vibration damper. I did a quick search for a P30 454 and they show them there as well. I guess it the same arrangement, ie combination crankshaft pulley/vibration damper?
Jim


Yeah, about the same. It consists of two parts, the inner hub and the outer heavy balancer. The outer is joined to the inner by vulcanized rubber. As it ages, it deteriorates, and the heavy outer balancer can slip on the inner hub. This can cause vibration, and will result in incorrect setting of ignition timing, as the timing mark is on the outside.

A good visual check is to see that it is not oily and the rubber is still pretty firm and not swelling. Oil leaking out of the front seal can hasten the deterioration of the rubber. If the rubber looks good, it is very unlikely anything has shifted on a non-performance engine with an automatic transmission. When I get a new (to me) vehicle, I clean the dampener and paint a white strip across the rubber, from the outer to the inner part. This allows me to immediately see any shifting.

If you want to check yours for slippage, holler.


.

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quote:
Because of the age of these coaches, and the design of these harmonic balancers, we now have 2 types of people on our forums... Those that have replaced their balancer and those who will soon be replacing them...


Fluidamprs are available for a variety of engines. Even for those that don't have an OEM one, an addition may be suitable.


Rusty


MilSpec AMG 6.5L TD 230HP; built-to-order by Peninsular Engines:  Hi-pop injectors, gear-driven camshaft, non-waste-gated, high-output turbo, 18:1 pistons.  Fuel economy increased by 15-20%, power, WOW!"StaRV II"

'94 28' Breakaway: MilSpec AMG 6.5L TD 230HP

Nelson and Chester, not-spoiled Golden Retrievers

Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not.
In either case the idea is quite staggering.
- Arthur C. Clarke

It was a woman who drove me to drink, and I've been searching thirty years to find her and thank her - W. C. Fields
 
Posts: 7734 | Location: Brooker, FL, USA | Member Since: 09-08-2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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i THINK IT IS PRETTY COMMON(cap locks off) the rubber in the balancer gets pretty dry with heat and age replaced mine. Had to take off the back safety support on the rear and four bolts pretty easy if you can get off the support. the belt can get pretty worn or will brake .Check the belt. I have a 8.3 cummins good luck.
lenny


lenny and judy
32', Regency, Cummins 8.3L, Spartan Chassis, 1992
Tag# 9112 0158 32RS 1B
 
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Thanks for all the input. Looks like next weekends project.
 
Posts: 216 | Location: Kailua Kona, HI & E. Waterboro, ME | Member Since: 06-27-2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Would be interested in know how removale of the radiatior itc turned out.


'92 Barth Breakaway - 30'
5.9 Cummins (6B) 300+ HP
2000 Allison
Front entrance
 
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Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 6/12
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Is there any type of warning before this fails & what happens when it does fail?

How do you check it?

We had a strange higher pitched hum/whirring noise on our trip home from Stone mountain, GA this weekend. We had the cruise on doing about 60-65mpg. It went away after about 30 sec then occurred a few minutes later for about 15 sec. the last time was about 15 or so minutes later but no obvious consequences. I thought it was coming from right rear area or drive shaft. I checked the drive shafts the u bolts & the differential is not leaking. Jim thinks it is either exhaust(I checked & didn't see any leaks)or exhaust manifold gasket. I don't see any carbon type leaking anywhere. Nor could I repeat the noise. But it didn't last more than 30 sec & we could't make it happen on our own.
Ideas? things to check?
Tere


Jim and TereJim and Tere

1985 Regal
29' Chevy 454 P32
8411 3172 29FP3B
Gear Vendor 6 Speed Tranny
 
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Glassnose Aficionado
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I had a similar experience this weekend with a high pitched squeal, which I'm sure is related to the clutch fan. Either the belt or fan, and intermitant due to the fact the fan only wants to turn when needed. A much simpler place to start than the HB, which I've rarely heard of a failure.


79 Barth Classic
 
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