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More Fuel system mods for the Regal
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Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 7/17
Picture of Steve VW
posted
When I fired up the new 454, the fuel pressure was low and fluctuating. This indicates I have fuel delivery problems... again head bang

The 86 Regal originally had an electric fuel pump in each tank, selector valve, pressure regulator, and routed through the old mechanical pump on the engine.

I've had problems with nearly every part. I removed and bypassed the engine pump. The selector valve stuck between tanks, one tank pump failed. I replaced the selector valve and abandoned the in tank pumps, went with an inline electric pump. This also allowed me to remove the fuel pressure regulator which had also been replaced already.

When I changed to the fuel injection system it was necessary to install a higher pressure inline pump (part of the kit)

The original tank pumps have screen filters to protect the pump from debris in the tank. I do not need them since I have a large filter in each line ahead of the selector valve. Unfortunately, the tanks have no drain plugs, so there is no way to drain and remove sediment. Therefore, all the dirt that has ever been in the tank is still there and is blocking the inlet screens, mostly in tank 2.

The combined restriction of the pump and the screen is too much for the fuel pump.

I have stalled on removing the tanks as long as possible, to remove the old pump and strainer. It looks like a real PITA...

I would like to install an open suction line to allow the sediment to be sucked up and trapped in the filter to be discarded.

These are the new filters. They are in each tank line just before the selector valve, seen on left side. These should be able to handle a good slug of crap before they get plugged up.



Next job is to install a direct, open fuel suction line. I would really like to have a connection to the bottom of the tank for a fuel tap and to allow the tank to be drained if needed. hmm


8607-3346-33TFPOB------9708-M0037-37MM-01
86 Regal SE 33 Tag axle--"98" Monarch 37
Chev P3(7) 454TBI--------Cummins 8.3 300 hp
400 hp fuel injected-------6 spd Allison, Spartan MM
 
Posts: 3217 | Location: Kalkaska, MI | Member Since: 02-04-2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 12/10
Picture of ccctimtation
posted Hide Post
There are "fuel polishers" for both gas and diesel. These are probably more easily found through a marina. Essentially they have a fuel safe pump, lots of filtration and circulate the fuel in the tank at a rate that both stirs and helps remove junk while it is still suspended.
Since you would not be enclosed you may be able to put a system together for less than the cost of the polishing. Or perhaps being able to drive to there shop makes the cost closer to price of labor and filters.
Good luck


I was taught to respect my elders but it is getting harder to find them!
 
Posts: 725 | Location: St. Charles, MO, USA | Member Since: 10-09-2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
First Month Member
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 11/13
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General drivel re fuel system cleanliness:

I filled my tank full and then put in the recommended amount of Red Line fuel system cleaner. It loosened up so much crud that both the inline and the Q jet inlet filter clogged. It is a little-know gotcha that the inlet filter of a Q jet can be pushed inward by fuel pressure when it clogs. This allows unfiltered crud to go directly into the float bowl. This floods the carbon canister, causing carbon particles to go into the float bowl through a vent, necessitating a roadside carb teardown and flush. The carb was full of what looked like black kitty litter.

After both filters were replaced, I later found a little crud from the same tankful. One more replacement, and all is good. It has stayed clean ever since.

I use steel inline filters. Their horizontal position allows water and crud to collect in the low side. Once a year, I remove it carefully, keeping it horizontal, and dump it into a glass jar. Then I cut it open to inspect for crud. My fuel system is staying clean. I credit Red Line for the initial cleanout and Seafoam for ongoing cleanup and fuel preservation. I always add Seafoam to the last tank of every outing so that it has Seafoam in it as it sits to prevent the gas from going sour. I also keep the tank full between trips, as dead air in the tank produces more crud.

As a side note, one of my little Honda generators was hard to start and required the choke to stay running, a classic sign of a clogged idle jet. A dose of Seafoam in the gas made it run better and better, no longer needing the choke. It has run fine since.


.

84 30T PeeThirty-Something, 502 powered
 
Posts: 7397 | Location: AZ Central Highlands | Member Since: 01-09-2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
First Month Member
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 11/13
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Steve VW:

These are the new filters. These should be able to handle a good slug of crap before they get plugged up.



Those are good filters. I use one on my boat, but silver-soldered a 1/8 NPT bung to the bottom. A petcock allowed me to drain water and crud.

It seems that boat gas has more water and crud than car gas. I have only had a crud problem once with cars or trucks, and that was stupidity. I bought gas from a station that had just been refilled from the tanker truck, and the refilling stirred up all the stuff in the bottom of the underground tank.

quote:
Next job is to install a direct, open fuel suction line. I would really like to have a connection to the bottom of the tank for a fuel tap and to allow the tank to be drained if needed. hmm


Best would be to solder a copper tube to the fuel gauge sender so it almost touches the bottom. Be sure the tube end is beaded for the hose. Run the hose to a carb vacuum port (or intake manifold port) with a valve in the cockpit. Whenever you climb a hill, open it up. This will give you the double benefits of water injection and a self-sumping fuel tank. An orifice in the line will prevent too rich a mixture.

BTW, this can be adapted to make a really stealth nitrous injection.

Keep following my helpful hints and you will be too busy working on the Barth to drive it.


.

84 30T PeeThirty-Something, 502 powered
 
Posts: 7397 | Location: AZ Central Highlands | Member Since: 01-09-2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 7/17
Picture of Steve VW
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by bill h:

Best would be to solder a copper tube to the fuel gauge sender so it almost touches the bottom. Be sure the tube end is beaded for the hose. Run the hose to a carb vacuum port (or intake manifold port) with a valve in the cockpit. Whenever you climb a hill, open it up. This will give you the double benefits of water injection and a self-sumping fuel tank. An orifice in the line will prevent too rich a mixture.

BTW, this can be adapted to make a really stealth nitrous injection.

Keep following my helpful hints and you will be too busy working on the Barth to drive it.


Thanks Bill, I think... ROTFLMAO

Just what I need! Nitrous injection! I'll have to install some wheelie bars after all. I'm ALREADY too busy to drive this thing!

So I decided to tackle the fuel tank problem. Tank 1 is better than tank 2 so I decide to try tank 2 first. Looking at the job to remove tank: filler hose, filler vent hose, suction line, return line, vent line and electrical connector as well as the support straps have to be removed... all from below... very little space above the tank... just shoot me now.

Hmm, OTH the floor pan above the tank is clear. The tank top plate is located under the bed but not under the water tank...

Sooo, I decided to go the top route. No need to disturb filler and vents or tank mounts, provides a hatch for future access.

Here we go:



I was surprised how much junk and corrosion I found. Wow, I may need to replace the whole assembly. confusion



At least now I can get to it fairly easily. I'll post again when I get the assembly cleaned up and out.


8607-3346-33TFPOB------9708-M0037-37MM-01
86 Regal SE 33 Tag axle--"98" Monarch 37
Chev P3(7) 454TBI--------Cummins 8.3 300 hp
400 hp fuel injected-------6 spd Allison, Spartan MM
 
Posts: 3217 | Location: Kalkaska, MI | Member Since: 02-04-2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
First Month Member
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 11/13
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Steve VW:

Next job is to install a direct, open fuel suction line. I would really like to have a connection to the bottom of the tank for a fuel tap and to allow the tank to be drained if needed. hmm


OK, you don't want to sump as you drive. I did the dip tube thing on my boat tank. I used an outboard squeeze primer in a line to get stuff off the bottom every spring. Once I did a good sump job in the spring, I found almost nothing all summer with the boat in use. But, sure enough, there was crud again in the spring. Gas just does that.

I also used the squeeze bulb when I needed a little bit of gas to clean something.

When I raced 2 cycle bikes, I used Blendzall castor oil. It would produce so much crud in a week between races that I drained the tank as soon as I was able to move on Monday. Not wanting to waste anything, ever, I poured the gas into my Vespa, that was my daily commuter. I got a lot of stares when people smelled it.

I still get off on the smell of castor oil, nitromethane, and hot metal.


.

84 30T PeeThirty-Something, 502 powered
 
Posts: 7397 | Location: AZ Central Highlands | Member Since: 01-09-2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 7/17
Picture of Steve VW
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by bill h:
I still get off on the smell of castor oil, nitromethane, and hot metal.


Ditto, I always liked the smell of 100 LL avgas, too. Thumbs Up

Got the top plate out of the tank. Cleaned up better than I thought. Tank was not as cruddy as I expected but the strainer was clogged. Worse yet the rubber coupler between the tank pump and fuel line was mushy and had a hole in it. (sucks air when tank is less than about 1/3 full)



Hard to see but the rubber coupler is mushy and full of small holes.



I will do as I planned (and as you suggested), remove pump and strainer and solder on a copper tube for a permanent fix. More photos to follow. mechanic


8607-3346-33TFPOB------9708-M0037-37MM-01
86 Regal SE 33 Tag axle--"98" Monarch 37
Chev P3(7) 454TBI--------Cummins 8.3 300 hp
400 hp fuel injected-------6 spd Allison, Spartan MM
 
Posts: 3217 | Location: Kalkaska, MI | Member Since: 02-04-2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
First Month Member
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 11/13
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Steve VW:

I will do as I planned (and as you suggested), remove pump and strainer and solder on a copper tube for a permanent fix. More photos to follow. mechanic


Do you need to borrow my beading tool?


.

84 30T PeeThirty-Something, 502 powered
 
Posts: 7397 | Location: AZ Central Highlands | Member Since: 01-09-2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 7/16
posted Hide Post
quote:
I still get off on the smell of castor oil, nitromethane, and hot metal.

....reminder of F-3 sportscars w/ 500 cc 2 stroke motor cycle engines!! Tooling Along






29' 1977parted out and still alive in Barths all over the USA
 
Posts: 939 | Location: Floral City FL | Member Since: 04-25-2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 7/17
Picture of Steve VW
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I removed the pump. It still runs but it has crud in it and doesn't pump anymore. It appears that the debris is actually small pieces of the strainer fabric. No wonder it failed.

I soldered an extension and a tee on the suction pipe, should be a permanent solution. Ready to reinstall. mechanic



Reinstalled in tank top, replaced rusted suction and return lines, direct from tank to filter and selector valve. For the first time since I owned it I have a completely functional, mostly new fuel system. (At least for tank 2) Tank 1 seems OK for now, lines were already replaced but strainer is still in the tank. Another project.)

Fuel pressure is stable now, too. When I get the broken brake line fixed I can finally road test the new 454. Thumbs Up


8607-3346-33TFPOB------9708-M0037-37MM-01
86 Regal SE 33 Tag axle--"98" Monarch 37
Chev P3(7) 454TBI--------Cummins 8.3 300 hp
400 hp fuel injected-------6 spd Allison, Spartan MM
 
Posts: 3217 | Location: Kalkaska, MI | Member Since: 02-04-2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 2/16
Captain Doom
Picture of Rusty
posted Hide Post
Timely topic! I noticed my coach Has difficulty getting above 6 psi boost, and the throttle is flat...time to change the fuel filter!


Rusty


MilSpec AMG 6.5L TD 230HP; built-to-order by Peninsular Engines:  Hi-pop injectors, gear-driven camshaft, non-waste-gated, high-output turbo, 18:1 pistons.  Fuel economy increased by 15-20%, power, WOW!"StaRV II"

'94 28' Breakaway: MilSpec AMG 6.5L TD 230HP

Nelson and Chester, not-spoiled Golden Retrievers

Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not.
In either case the idea is quite staggering.
- Arthur C. Clarke

It was a woman who drove me to drink, and I've been searching thirty years to find her and thank her - W. C. Fields
 
Posts: 8200 | Location: Brooker, FL, USA | Member Since: 09-08-2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 2/16
Captain Doom
Picture of Rusty
posted Hide Post
Changed the fuel filter today (with 65K miles on it) - the old one was definitely cruddy!

Naturally, I got the gasket cocked the first time and put several ounces of diesel into the valley...at least the lift pump works fine and the tank sock filter isn't a restriction.


Rusty


MilSpec AMG 6.5L TD 230HP; built-to-order by Peninsular Engines:  Hi-pop injectors, gear-driven camshaft, non-waste-gated, high-output turbo, 18:1 pistons.  Fuel economy increased by 15-20%, power, WOW!"StaRV II"

'94 28' Breakaway: MilSpec AMG 6.5L TD 230HP

Nelson and Chester, not-spoiled Golden Retrievers

Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not.
In either case the idea is quite staggering.
- Arthur C. Clarke

It was a woman who drove me to drink, and I've been searching thirty years to find her and thank her - W. C. Fields
 
Posts: 8200 | Location: Brooker, FL, USA | Member Since: 09-08-2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Supporting Member of Barthmobile.com 2/16
Captain Doom
Picture of Rusty
posted Hide Post
Well, the low boost wasn't a fuel-flow issue. Yesterday, when I had the "hood" up for another reason, I discovered the crankcase depression valve wasn't in its socket in the right valve cover; it take boost pressure from a tee. Replaced it, and all is well.

I must have kicked it when sitting on the engine changing the air filter.


Rusty


MilSpec AMG 6.5L TD 230HP; built-to-order by Peninsular Engines:  Hi-pop injectors, gear-driven camshaft, non-waste-gated, high-output turbo, 18:1 pistons.  Fuel economy increased by 15-20%, power, WOW!"StaRV II"

'94 28' Breakaway: MilSpec AMG 6.5L TD 230HP

Nelson and Chester, not-spoiled Golden Retrievers

Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not.
In either case the idea is quite staggering.
- Arthur C. Clarke

It was a woman who drove me to drink, and I've been searching thirty years to find her and thank her - W. C. Fields
 
Posts: 8200 | Location: Brooker, FL, USA | Member Since: 09-08-2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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